Production of Hanhart & Tutima started in Autumn 1942: some evidence

  • For some time I have been looking into the production dates for Hanhart and Tutima flieger chronos. I'm particularly interested in the beginning of production. I have always been skeptical of the traditional dating used by sellers and collectors. They tend to date Hanhart very early in the war 1939 and Tutima in 1941. I think there is enough evidence to suggest that both chronographs are in fact much later. I have gathered information about dials and serial numbers. Some dials (not all) are dated, particularly those made by Weber & Baral in Pforzheim. I would like to share some of this info below.


    Hanhart Eindrückerchronograph mit Pointerlunette (Zifferblattaufdruck “Hanhart”) #1227 - dial date 13 November 1942

    Hanhart Doppeldrückerchronograph ohne Drehlunette #14776 - dial date 10 April 1943

    Hanhart Doppeldrückerchronograph ohne Drehlunette #23403 - dial date 24 September 1943


    Tutima gold movement #2076 - W+B date 28.11.1942


    What do we learn from this?


    From 13 Nov. 42 to 10 Apr. 1943 Hanhart produced 13549 watches in 147 days, an average of c. 92 watches/day.

    From 10 Apr. 1943 to 24 Sept. 1943 Hanhart produced 8627 watches in 167 days, an average of c. 51 watches/day.


    Production could not have started earlier than October 1942 given the rhythm of production. Looking at the serial numbers and types of cases and movements from this excellent article below, we clearly see that the Eindrückercker was produced until c. April 1943 after which the Doppel was produced until the end. All the cal. 40 Hanhart watches were produced between October 1942-April 1943 so in the space of 6 months.



    Another important point is that most Hanhart chronos were produced in 1943, I vaguely remember Frank Roesky saying that in his experience Hanhart tend to have a 1943 date on the dial, so this seems to be absolutely correct. Even with production of c. 50 watches a day towards the end of 1943, looking at the serial numbers below by 1. January 1944 Hanhart should be at least at serial 28000, so Hanhart produced c. 28k watches in about one year. We suspect that wartime cal. 41 can be found until serial 33000 or so. In conclusion production slowed down significantly in 1944 probably with bombing of Pforzheim, Hanhart factories etc.


    As far as the start of production for Tutima we see something very similar - a very early Pointerlunette with gold plated movement from November 1942, so here as well I would say that production started in Autumn of 1942


    In conclusion, Luftwaffe fliegers Hanhart and Tutima did not exist before the Autumn of 1942. Up to that point pilots probably used 1930s Swiss fliegers like Helvetia, Doxa, Zenith and the dozen more known by collectors.


    1227_13Nov1942.JPG114776_19Apr1943.jpg123403_24Sep1943.jpg


    2076_28Nov1942.jpg

  • Welcome back,


    I remember our very intersting discussion in several threads. As far as I remember we dated the start of the Tutima production into late summer 1942. Hanharts chronographs are a miracle too. I am absolutely with you, that the manufacturers timeline is pure fantasy. But I remember pictures of german pilots during the battle of britain campaign, who are visible wearing german chronographs in 1940/41. We posted some of them here in our forum, but I don´t remember where exactly.


    Datierung von Tutima Glashütte Uhren? - Militäruhren - Vintage und Aktuell - Vintage-Time Forum (vintage-time.de)


    Tutima Fliegerchronograph der Luftwaffe, hergestellt von der UHRENFABRIK AG GLASHÜTTE (Sa) Mitte 1943 - Militäruhren - Vintage und Aktuell - Vintage-Time Forum (vintage-time.de)


    Kind regards

    Walter

  • I forgot about this one, but it only goes to prove my point. So production started in September and probably evolved more slowly until early 1943 when it accelerated incredibly. Of course, technically speaking we're dating dials, not watches, but it is likely that dials were dispatched very soon and installed on watches. If anything it makes actual production even later! I truly don't think there can be Hanhart chronos in the Battle of Britain. If watch 00005 is from Sept. 1942 how can you have this flieger in Sept. 1940...? Impossible. The pointed bezel on early Tutima and early Hanhart suggests they were produced around the same time and that time is late summer early autumn 1942. Highest production year was clearly 1943 after German economy went to total war mobilization. As we see from the serial numbers and dated dials, production almost vanished in 1944 at Hanhart and perhaps Glashuette continued all the way to the end of the war when Kurtz continued a short post-war production from c. 15000 serial number. But I feel very convinced now that both Tutima and Hanhart start in mid-late 1942 and not earlier.


    As far as Hanhart is concerned when seller describe a Eindrückerchronograph mit Pointerlunette as "very early" and a Doppeldrücker as "late" in fact it can be only three months difference between them in 1943...!!!


    For Günter Rall's watch we would have to see the dial date!

    I have seen many pictures of Marseille wearing a watch but it was never a chrono Hanhart or Tutima and he died in Sept. 1942. A popular ace like him would have obtained the best watch I suspect!

  • The dials could be changed and there is no proof, that all watches were produced in a straight timeline. We have to analyse fotos of the early war campaigns and other documents like the typical "Wehrpass". This could help.


    Gruß,

    Walter

  • The german flight ace Günter Rall received his Hanhart SN 109 090 at the begining of the war, as a personal document shows.

    Hallo Walter,


    die erwähnten persönlichen Dokumente kann ich nirgends sehen, aber diese Uhr kann das nicht gewesen sein, denn ihr Blatt trägt das Datum von 1943 (mal wieder), und fügt sich so gut in die Nummern/Zeitleiste Reihe ein.


    Gruß, Frank

  • Das persönliche Dokument war Bestandteil der Auktion, handschriftlich und von ihm unterschrieben. Er hatte es vor Jahren dem Verkäufer ausgestellt.


    Rall schreibt wörtlich: "Ich habe diese Uhr Anfang des Krieges erhalten..." Dieses Dokument lässt sich nicht relativieren, ausser man würde ihm unterstellen, die Unwahrheit zu behaupten.


    Gunther Rall’s Luftwaffe Pilots Watch by Hanhart, being a single button chronograph wristwatch. M (the-saleroom.com)


    Gruß

    Walter

  • Danke für den Link, Walter.


    Da steht nun halt ein wohlwollend verfasstes Schreiben für einen Freund mit unscharfer Zeitangabe gegen die Fakten der Uhr. Das kann nun jede(r) deuten, wie es am besten gefällt ...


    Gruß, Frank

  • Na ja, die Fakten der Uhr bestehen lediglich aus einer willkürlichen Zahl auf dem Rückdeckel, die wir einseitig deuten. Das Thema wird uns noch eine Weile beschäftigen und vielleicht gibt es ja eines Tages eindeutige Hinweise die Klarheit schaffen.


    Gruß

    Walter

  • Someone like Rall had many watches during the war. I would also trust the evidence of the watch more than someone's memory. Of course, as you say Walter, we don't have definitive evidence either way. A date on the back of a dial doesn't answer all the questions but in my opinion if you have a sufficient database of dial dates and their correlation with serial numbers on the case you will see a pattern! I don't have a rich database yet but certainly Frank has seen hundreds of HH. For now I am ready to accept that most HH were produced in 1943 and just a few thousand pieces date from 1942 and 1944. HH used in the Battle of Britain is a nice story that works well for sellers and auction houses 😁

  • If dials hab been changed during Service we would not have a clear pattern of dials related to serial number ranges... Like the early hanhart only dials and the sterile ones...

    I have never seen any proof of watches before late 1942

    The easiest proof of earlier watches would be a documented found of a watch during the air battle of britain by british authorities with a shot down Pilot... They should have documented everything, but never seen one.

    Regards Dirk

  • 1942 sollten alle B-Uhren Zifferblätter ausgetauscht werden - "Luftwaffenverordnung 1528".


    STOWA Baumuster B und die Luftwaffenverordnung 1528 - Fliegeruhren - Vintage - Vintage-Time Forum (vintage-time.de)


    Man hatte erstmalig in der Luftschlacht um England umfangreiche Erfahrungen gesammelt und wollte die Ablesbarkeit verbessern. Wurde die Ablesbarkeit der Fliegeruhren unter Einsatzbedingungen des Nachts auch moniert und erfolgte daraufhin ein Wechsel? Möglich ist alles.


    Gruß,

    Walter

  • Dr. G.. You are absolutely right... The only dials known to me replaced are the Bundeswehr tritium for radiation reason. I do not know about the glow of new Radium compared to 2 or 3 years old ( does anybodody😎). That would be the only reason to change the hanhart Radium dials, the B Uhr dials Design was changed, but the hanhart?

  • If the lume needed to be refreshed they would simply relume the dial and hands as needed. No reason to replace the dial in my opinion. Of course there are modern frankenwatches with parts taken from different watches but that's a different discussion.


    Best,

    Andrei

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