Posts by Dr_G

    Here's a later one, 15.07.1944. I don't have reliable info about the serial number, unfortunately, but at least we see Hanhart still produced watches in the summer of '44. Another interesting observation, the early dials seem to be produced heavily by W+B (Weber & Baral) in Pforzheim while the later ones after the summer of 1943 come from WC. I'm not sure what WC stands for but this manufacturer could be from Pforzheim also.

    Files

    • 15Jul1944.jpg

      (125.71 kB, downloaded 2 times, last: )

    Dirk, yes, I suspect Tutima and Hanhart were coordinated to some extend based on the needs of the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.


    The pointed bezel from Tutima must be contemporary with the pointed bezel of the single-pusher Hanhart. Same for the plated case back. I would date this phase from c. June '42 to April '43 for both watches.


    I think both Tutima and Hanhart made the transition around the same time and abandoned the pointed bezel and replaced the plated back with a stainless steel. The pointer appears constantly on Tutima until serial. c. 3300 (see below Aktuell vom 18.04.2021.pdf). On Cal 40 Hanhart the pointer appears until c. 12000.


    https://www.glashuetteuhren.de…nograph-mit-urofa-kal-59/


    And yes I think Urofa 59 flyback started before Cal 41 Hanhart flyback, probably Urofa is middle of 1942 while cal. 41 is around April 1943.


    These dates can be refined and adjusted with more information. But I think we can be pretty confident when the chronographs were introduced. It's much later in the war than people normally think. Even the modern companies Glashuette and Hanhart use wrong dates. I think it is pretty embarrassing that they didn't bother to do some research. Hanhart claims the double pusher dates from 1940...


    https://www.hanhart.com/en/abo…t/the-history-of-hanhart/


    Best,

    Andrei

    Excellent additions and very important, thank you! What is the date on the last dial, 10.3.1943?


    #3 - dial date 1 July 1942

    #777 - dial date 7 September 1942

    #1227 - dial date 13 November 1942

    #2536 - dial date 13 November 1942

    #37xx - dial date 21 December 1942

    #5887 - dial date 3 January 1943

    #7530(?) - dial date 10 March (?) 1943

    #14776 - dial date 10 April 1943

    #23403 - dial date 24 September 1943


    Note that we have two dials from 13 November 1942 and the serial numbers are c. 1300 numbers apart. This goes back to the conversation with Dirk above regarding the time when the dials were actually installed on the watch. Here dials stamped 13 November were installed on those two watches (#1227 and # 2536) watches probably one month apart. Looking further down the list #3700 and #5887 are only separated by less than two weeks on dial stamps but there are more than 2000 numbers difference on the serial so it is possible that the 3 January dial was actually installed in February.


    I wish Frank had pictures of every HH dial he handled :)


    Best,

    Andrei

    I don't necessarily assume. The numbers above do show a clear progression over time with dials and serials advancing together. Of course I would like to have hundreds of examples like the ones above to be fully confident! So far I didn't find early dial dates paired with high serial numbers. For example one of the watches above, serial #1227 has a dial from 13 November 1942. I have a HH Eindrücker in my collection with serial #1389 and the dial is from 19 November. At least in this situation they were clearly installing dials in a certain order, as both the dates and the serials are very close.


    It is also not unreasonable to expect a good degree of order & efficiency in 1942-1943, before the massive bombing campaign started, with boxes of parts clearly marked and used in a certain order. Why would they even date the dials if it didn't matter, right? Maybe I have a stereotypical view of German efficiency during the war, but I really have a hard time picturing dials randomly thrown into a drawer and forgotten there for months...


    Andrei

    Friends, so this is what we have right now:


    Eindrückerchronograph ohne Lünette #5 - dial date 1 July 1942

    Eindrückerchronograph #777 - dial date 7 September 1942

    Eindrückerchronograph mit Pointerlunette (Zifferblattaufdruck “Hanhart”) #1227 - dial date 13 November 1942

    Eindrückerchronograph ohne Lünette #37xx - dial date 21 December 1942

    Hanhart Doppeldrückerchronograph ohne Drehlunette #14776 - dial date 10 April 1943

    Hanhart Doppeldrückerchronograph ohne Drehlunette #23403 - dial date 24 September 1943


    A convincing observation - July 1 is likely the beginning of production, or very close to this date in late June.


    Another very early number #3 was offered for sale on ebay last week and the seller claims that Frank serviced the watch. Frank, do you remember the date on the dial for this one??


    https://www.ebay.com/itm/30395…ewItem=&item=303957995838


    Tentative observations: based on this limited list of dial dates & corresponding serial numbers we see a production of:

    - 11 watches/day on average from 1 July-7 September 1942

    - 7 watches/day from 7 September - 13 November 1942

    - 65 watches/day from 13 November - 21 December 1942

    - 99 watches/day from 21 December 1942 - 10 April 1943

    - 51 watches/day from 10 April -24 September 1943


    The exact numbers are very relative but the trend is important. Production started slow from July to November 1942 then accelerated incredibly with the high point in the winter-spring of 1943.


    If anyone has more dial dates please post them here. Ask other collectors if you know them. It would be interesting and important to draw some conclusions at the end of this conversation.

    Someone like Rall had many watches during the war. I would also trust the evidence of the watch more than someone's memory. Of course, as you say Walter, we don't have definitive evidence either way. A date on the back of a dial doesn't answer all the questions but in my opinion if you have a sufficient database of dial dates and their correlation with serial numbers on the case you will see a pattern! I don't have a rich database yet but certainly Frank has seen hundreds of HH. For now I am ready to accept that most HH were produced in 1943 and just a few thousand pieces date from 1942 and 1944. HH used in the Battle of Britain is a nice story that works well for sellers and auction houses 😁

    I forgot about this one, but it only goes to prove my point. So production started in September and probably evolved more slowly until early 1943 when it accelerated incredibly. Of course, technically speaking we're dating dials, not watches, but it is likely that dials were dispatched very soon and installed on watches. If anything it makes actual production even later! I truly don't think there can be Hanhart chronos in the Battle of Britain. If watch 00005 is from Sept. 1942 how can you have this flieger in Sept. 1940...? Impossible. The pointed bezel on early Tutima and early Hanhart suggests they were produced around the same time and that time is late summer early autumn 1942. Highest production year was clearly 1943 after German economy went to total war mobilization. As we see from the serial numbers and dated dials, production almost vanished in 1944 at Hanhart and perhaps Glashuette continued all the way to the end of the war when Kurtz continued a short post-war production from c. 15000 serial number. But I feel very convinced now that both Tutima and Hanhart start in mid-late 1942 and not earlier.


    As far as Hanhart is concerned when seller describe a Eindrückerchronograph mit Pointerlunette as "very early" and a Doppeldrücker as "late" in fact it can be only three months difference between them in 1943...!!!


    For Günter Rall's watch we would have to see the dial date!

    I have seen many pictures of Marseille wearing a watch but it was never a chrono Hanhart or Tutima and he died in Sept. 1942. A popular ace like him would have obtained the best watch I suspect!

    For some time I have been looking into the production dates for Hanhart and Tutima flieger chronos. I'm particularly interested in the beginning of production. I have always been skeptical of the traditional dating used by sellers and collectors. They tend to date Hanhart very early in the war 1939 and Tutima in 1941. I think there is enough evidence to suggest that both chronographs are in fact much later. I have gathered information about dials and serial numbers. Some dials (not all) are dated, particularly those made by Weber & Baral in Pforzheim. I would like to share some of this info below.


    Hanhart Eindrückerchronograph mit Pointerlunette (Zifferblattaufdruck “Hanhart”) #1227 - dial date 13 November 1942

    Hanhart Doppeldrückerchronograph ohne Drehlunette #14776 - dial date 10 April 1943

    Hanhart Doppeldrückerchronograph ohne Drehlunette #23403 - dial date 24 September 1943


    Tutima gold movement #2076 - W+B date 28.11.1942


    What do we learn from this?


    From 13 Nov. 42 to 10 Apr. 1943 Hanhart produced 13549 watches in 147 days, an average of c. 92 watches/day.

    From 10 Apr. 1943 to 24 Sept. 1943 Hanhart produced 8627 watches in 167 days, an average of c. 51 watches/day.


    Production could not have started earlier than October 1942 given the rhythm of production. Looking at the serial numbers and types of cases and movements from this excellent article below, we clearly see that the Eindrückercker was produced until c. April 1943 after which the Doppel was produced until the end. All the cal. 40 Hanhart watches were produced between October 1942-April 1943 so in the space of 6 months.



    Another important point is that most Hanhart chronos were produced in 1943, I vaguely remember Frank Roesky saying that in his experience Hanhart tend to have a 1943 date on the dial, so this seems to be absolutely correct. Even with production of c. 50 watches a day towards the end of 1943, looking at the serial numbers below by 1. January 1944 Hanhart should be at least at serial 28000, so Hanhart produced c. 28k watches in about one year. We suspect that wartime cal. 41 can be found until serial 33000 or so. In conclusion production slowed down significantly in 1944 probably with bombing of Pforzheim, Hanhart factories etc.


    As far as the start of production for Tutima we see something very similar - a very early Pointerlunette with gold plated movement from November 1942, so here as well I would say that production started in Autumn of 1942


    In conclusion, Luftwaffe fliegers Hanhart and Tutima did not exist before the Autumn of 1942. Up to that point pilots probably used 1930s Swiss fliegers like Helvetia, Doxa, Zenith and the dozen more known by collectors.


    1227_13Nov1942.JPG114776_19Apr1943.jpg123403_24Sep1943.jpg


    2076_28Nov1942.jpg

    Thanks, Walter. I'll post pictures of my Hanhart tomorrow. It appears that operations continued at Hanhart until the old parts left in stock after the war were used. In some cases the pusher caps are shorter and the small hands have different size or style, depending on what was available, I assume. Just like the Russians used the old parts from Glashuette to make their earliest chronographs. But, yes, it remains a mystery. Who was in charge of Hanhart factory in 1945-1946? Were these watches issued and sold on the free market although during the war they were only supplied to the military? Were some delivered to Allied pilots in 1945? I would be inclined to say that the situation at Hanhart must have been similar to what Dr. Kurtz was doing with his production of Tutima numbered 15000 to 17000. But Hanhart clearly had less systematic numbering system. Some have numbers scratched on the case back (not machine engraved), 1000 to 2000 range, others have serial numbers on the movement, others don't have markings. Old dials produced in Pforzheim during the war were used (Hanhart 17 Steine type) on these early watches with low numbers, under 2500 and then dial style changed. Very interesting history.


    Best,
    Andrei

    I'm a little confused about the operation at Hanhart between 1945 and 1948 when the French took over (and eventually issued their Type 20). I often see Hanhart two pusher chronos, Cal. 42 with big screw in the middle clearly produced after the war, but the case and dial combinations as well as serial number pattern can differ quite a bit. Some, presumably the earliest post-war examples, have cases identical with the wartime issues, identical dial, caseback. It may be that some are chrome plated rather than nickel plated but from pictures it's not always easy to tell. In all cases the serial number is missing on the back and the number on the movement was reset and started from 0 (no longer continued the numbering of wartime production). From what I've seen the numbers under 2500 seem to be closer to the Luftwaffe issued chronos. I'm assuming that parts left in stock at the end of the war were used to make these watches. However, other Hanharts fitted with cal. 42 have different dials and cases and pushers. I see them with serial numbers as low as 4000.


    I wonder if anyone knows more about these early postwar Hanhart watches. Who were they made for? I know Dr. Kurtz made c. 2000 Tutima watches for American pilots, also with existing parts, but continued the numbering used at Glashutte. Could Hanhart have produced watches for the same purpose in 1945?


    Please feel free to respond in German. I can read but I don't have enough practice writing.

    Going back to the information we could draw from dials: unfortunately, not all Tutima dials have dates, although most of them have other production codes:


    http://www.milwatchmaker.com/immagini/Gl-luft/gl13.jpg
    [url='https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/12d7a89e3a40d5c97496884cfb96ca10/5B578CBE/t51.2885-15/e35/12081307_1502096066754973_572300318_n.jpg?se=7&ig_cache_key=MTA5MDU4ODk3NzY1NDg1NjcyNg%3D%3D.2']https://scontent-sea1-1.cdnins…Dk3NzY1NDg1NjcyNg%3D%3D.2

    Günter, that can be a personal preference, not necessarily related to rarity or functionality. As you know, Ufag tried to improve the Urofa 59 during the war by adding features such as shock protection. I personally prefer the later Traktor models, as they are historically more "tragic". The early golden ones show the arrogance and confidence of the early war years while the later ones, especially the version with sterile dial, illustrate a time of confusion. But honestly what I prefer most of all is a Tutima with a real story. I have a late model brought home by a US soldier who took it from a German pilot during the Wacht am Rhein - Bodenplatte campaign. Such stories are priceless in my opinion.


    As for Müncheberg, I haven't seen the picture you mentioned. What's the name of that book and can you show us a picture?


    And by the way, I received Mölders und seine Männer from 1941. Unfortunately no relevant watch pictures.


    Best,
    Andrei

    Friends, this is another interesting observation that I made during my research for the dating of Tutima: there is significant misconception regarding the rarity and value of the three types of Urofa 59 movements. Most sellers claim that gold plated movements are "rare" and "early" and therefore very "desirable". These statements are made either out of ignorance or deliberately, in order to justify a higher price. In reality, quite the opposite is true in what concerns the rarity and the real collecting value of the three versions of Tutima. The data below is based on Hans-Georg Donner's (owner of glashuetteuhren.de) database of existing Tutima serial numbers, to which I have contributed myself recently. His database now includes 385 Tutima produced during WW2, up to serial number c. 15000, after which watches were assembled in a mix & match fashion that betrays post-war production with remaining parts at Glashuette and/or Memmelsdorf.

    The database can be found here, last updated a few days ago:
    https://www.glashuetteuhren.de…nograph-mit-urofa-kal-59/

    This is how things look like (with some minor gaps for the transition between the types where we don't have enough information yet):

    Production (up to serial 15000):
    Gold: c. 5750 watches = 39%
    Silver: c. 4400 watches = 30%
    Nickel: c. 4500 watches = 31%

    Survival rate:
    Gold: 164 watches = 43%
    Silver: 131 watches = 35%
    Nickel: 81 watches = 21%

    It is very clear that: 1) the most common movements are the gold plated ones; and 2) the highest rate of survival is also for the gold movements. The most rare are the nickel plated ones, which should be the most desirable and sought after by collectors. Why do the nickel ones have a much lower survival rate? Certainly because of the fast and high death rate of pilots in the later part of the war when these movements were produced. The death rate of fighter pilots in 1944, for instance, is at least double compared to 1942 (see Mike Pavelec, The Luftwaffe 1933-1945. The Essential facts and Figures, p.172).

    Collectors can appreciate and prefer the gold plated Urofa 59 just because it's yellow and shiny. Collectors' preferences are often arbitrary. However, to claim that gold-plated Urofa 59 are rare or inherently desirable is a false statement.


    Below are just two examples, from reputed and knowledgeable dealers. I'm not even going to mention eBay or Chrono24 where sellers rarely know what they're talking about (although this is a very expensive watch).


    http://www.ulricofengland.com/…lt_Movement_/g008334.html
    http://www.classicwatch.com/as…19&Model=Luftwaffe&Step=1